What makes a "Japanese Beer" or a "Japanese Brewer"?
For sure I write a lot about beer in Japan, most of it being what I would call Japanese Beer. I guess until today I had never really thought about what a true Japanese beer really is. If you asked most people who know a bit about beer to name a Japanese beer, most would probably say Asahi, Kirin, Sapporo, and maybe even Suntory. For sure these are Japanese companies that make a lot of beer, and most of the people that work for these companies are Japanese. But do they make Japanese beer???
I know you don't need another history lesson telling you about how Europeans came to Japan about 200 years ago and with them brought their brewing techniques. It is the same with most places outside of Europe. If you are drinking beer just about anywhere in the world, it's a safe bet to say that said beer has its roots in someone from Europe.
Are we going to call every beer made in Japan, Japanese beer? Is everyone who makes beer in Japan for a Japanese brewery, a Japanese brewer? Or is that term only going to be reserved for the ethnically Japanese?
I have heard some folks give breweries like Baird a hard time for not being TRULY Japanese. I find this laughable. Are the beers made by Bryan Baird and Chris Poel 'less Japanese' because they are non-natives? Would a beer made with Japanese mikans using the Japanese work ethic by a non-native be less Japanese than a boring Alt made by a native? Do Bryan and Chris (and Scott Brimmer and other non-native brewers out there living in Japan) not get to be considered Japanese brewers because they don't look Japanese?
I remember talking with Bryan Baird in the past and hearing him mention how he is more Japanese than many of their other brewers out there who are brewing the status quo. I agree.
For me, a Japanese beer is one made here in Japan with the spirit, pride, and passion of this country. For sure Japanese beer abounds. Even breweries like Kirin, and Asahi (who we give a hard time) are making a quality product that Japanese people can be proud of. (For those who don't believe me, check out how much a "premium" 6 pack of Asahi costs back in the states!) But besides this, this country is full of brewers who are pushing the limits and making Japanese beer. Beers with Mikans, green tea, miso, yuzu, fish, shiso, and many other Japanese fruits are all inventions of Japan.
Maybe it's just me, but I will always choose a Japanese beer made by a Japanese brewer if I am at a good beer joint. Part of the reason could be that I know I will not live in Japan forever, and that I will return home to KY one day where I can get many good American brews. When I am in Japan, I will always reach for the beer made here, over the ones that travel over the oceans.
And if you think that a Shizuoka Summer Ale or a Gotemba Kogen Weizenbock is less Japanese than a ho-hum pilsner made by Naninani-san--just because the brewer isn't 'Japanese'.....
Then I think you are crazy.
I hope I can stir the brewpot with this a bit and get some differing opinions. What say you?
I hope I can stir the brewpot on this one, I really want to. I want to know what everyone out there thinks.
69 comments:
> I remember talking with Bryan Baird in the past and hearing him mention how he is more Japanese than many of their other brewers out there who are brewing the status quo. I agree.
Brewers outside Japan don't recognise Bryan Baird as a Japanese brewer. Japanese brewers don't recognise Bryan Baird as a Japanese brewer. Bryan Baird wants to be recognised as an American Brewer outside Japan.
Baird is as Japanese as McDonald's.
Hm. I just don't see it. Baird uses many Japanese ingredients to make new and interesting beers. They even give some of their beers Japanese names. Doesn't that put them in the "Japanese Beer" category?
Does Nest's Red Rice Ale or Ise Kadoya's Genmai Ale count more than The Carpenter's Mikan Ale?
I think it is sad that someone working on making a grat beer would waste thier thought and energy striving to be called a "Japanese" beer. Who cares if you are making something that your custers will love!
I have to draw the comparison with great chefs that mix the ingredients and techniques from multiple cultures cuisine. Would a chef be worried about nationality labels if he was making a dish in LA that borrowed from Japanese, French. & Vietnamese cuisine? Of course not.
I think that those that exclusively pigeon hole themselves to one technique and just a few ingrediants because they want to be called a Japanese brewer are not recognizing an advatantage they would have over thier competitors if the gave up witting about this.
I think it is sad that someone working on making a great beer would waste thier thought and energy striving to be called a "Japanese" beer. Who cares if you are making something that your customers will love!
I have to draw the comparison with great chefs that mix the ingredients and techniques from multiple cultures cuisine. Would a chef be worried about nationality labels if he was making a dish in LA that borrowed from Japanese, French. & Vietnamese cuisine? Of course not.
I think that those that exclusively pigeon hole themselves to one technique and just a few ingrediants because they want to be called a Japanese brewer are not recognizing an advatantage they would have over thier competitors if the gave up witting about this.
I think its a bit of a silly argument. Brain participates in events like the Japanese craf beer fest makes beer in Japan ect. He does business in Japan. On the other hand his styles are generally well..American. But honestly in a time when I can go down to by conbini and get beer from all around the world, or when Japanese brewers are making decent representations of styles from around the world, not to mention if I go to Tanakaya and the variety there, I think the question to ask is no?" what country is this brewer from" but " what kind of beers to they make?". But if we really want a definite answer the only one your going to get is to look at his business permit. Is it Japanese? Yeah, so hes a Japanese brewer.
Mark Williams, You bring up some great points. If a craftsman is only concerned with making an outstanding product, should they even care what style the talking heads (bloggers?!) decide to group them in??
Shakujin, good points as well.
I'm glad to get some differing opinions! Anyone else care to weigh in?
There are plenty of Peruvian and Brazilian nationals working at factories in Aichi, putting together parts for Toyota cars. Nobody calls those cars South American, or "Pacific Rim fusion," or whatever as a result, though. Toyotas are Japanese.
At the same time, two American citizens living in Japan can fornicate and have a baby, and that baby is American by birth.
So is crafting beer more like manufacturing or like giving birth?
Durf...I like your reasoning.
"So is crafting beer more like manufacturing or like giving birth?"
Good question.
I always look down upon (and just for clarity's sake, by the phrase "always look down upon," I mean "make fun of"), consumers in the US that insist that their "Japanese" beer that was brewed in Los Angeles or Canada (that sure, is a Japanese trademarked brand, and has it's original brewing roots in European brewing as that's where original brewmasters and recipe formulations were based upon) goes better with sushi.
I will never be able to wrest the ignorance from those that willingly keep a white knuckle grip on theirs...so I don't try all that often. Sure, I do poke fun from time to time. Like now.
A beer is from the country in which it is brewed. Thus, a Japanese-branded beer brewed in Canada is a Canadian beer. Just as an Australian-branded beer brewed in Canada is a Canadian beer.
A beer brewed in Japan is a Japanese beer.
What if it's a Belgian-style beer, for example, that was brewed in Japan? Well, then it's a Belgian-style Japanese beer.
Of course, I do realize that I am stating nothing other than the obvious.
Cheers,
Greg
Well said Greg! You make a great point about "Japanese Beer" in the US being made there and not being 'Japanese'!
And Greg, no one can state the obvious as eloquently as you.
If you are wondering, yes, that's the real him.
Now, after all that, I am making a monster pot of chili and I used a can of Super Dry in it. I'm drinking an Aooni! Cheers!
Beer in Japan said:
"Brewers outside Japan don't recognise Bryan Baird as a Japanese brewer. Japanese brewers don't recognise Bryan Baird as a Japanese brewer. Bryan Baird wants to be recognised as an American Brewer outside Japan.
Baird is as Japanese as McDonald's."
Alan, you're letting your obsessive dislike of Bryan show again.
And just for the record, Bryan has no interest in being recognized as an American brewer, especially outside Japan.
Mark Williams said:
"I think that those that exclusively pigeon hole themselves to one technique and just a few ingrediants because they want to be called a Japanese brewer"
Mark, I invite you to come to our brewery and check out what we're doing. Like any good craftsman (and that's what every craft brewer should be), we borrow, adapt, innovate, and hopefully inspire, all in the name of making the best, most interesting beer we can. No gimmicks, just passionate guys doing what they love doing.
Finally, overall there is no beer style that originated in Japan -- so in that sense, no brewery in this country is brewing Japanese beer? Anyone who believes that is full of shit. Or maybe I should quote DH, who put it a little nicer: "Then I think you are crazy." [grin]
DH said, "Now, after all that, I am making a monster pot of chili and I used a can of Super Dry in it."
So, you're making Japanese chili, then. [huge shit-eating grin]
Chris, It's gonna be good Japanese chili too....Japanese green and hot peppers and Japanese garlic!!!!
Beans are from Brazil though....
Speaking of beans...I might have added too many for most....
Speaking of shit eating grins....I'll be wearing one in the morning!
Since there isn't a patent on beer styling. Shouldn't beer be recognized for its brew creed AND the soil it is brewed upon, ie: kokeshi Belgian Ale of Japan?
Wine labeling is based on it's grapes make, region and labeled from the country from which it is created. Beer should have a similar labeling methodology if the brew style hasn't changed more then 75 percent and also because there are environmental and regulatory changes at every brew site, in every region, of every country.
That aside, beer is an art and a science. It has a history brewers and beer drinkers alike should respect.
You can take the pilsner out of the country but you can't take the country out of the pilsner.
Chuwy,
Yep, not BB's biggest fan after he started insulting me when I travelled down to Numazu. No reason for it.
But I'm not obsessive about it - maybe you think I am because I replied to your countless emails about you being in Taproom, etc which for obvious reasons I had no interest in. But if I was obsessive about it I would be telling people on BIJ not to go there and there is nothing bad about Baird on BIJ. Let's not argue, huh?
DH,
interesting debate. Lots of different ideas. I think the best point made was just to enjoy the good beers rather than caring where they come from!
I've been thinking about DH's basic question: "What makes a "Japanese Beer" or a "Japanese Brewer"?"
There's one more question, what makes a Japanese brewery? In my view, Baird Brewing (with me and Bryan B) and Gotemba Kogen (with Scott B) are most definitely Japanese breweries and we most definitely are making Japanese beer. The debate about whether or not we're Japanese brewers is meaningless.
At Baird we use grains from the US, UK, Germany and Japan, we use hops from the US, UK, Germany, Czech Republic and New Zealand, we use water from Mt Fuji, we use fruits and vegetables and spices from Japan, we use equipment from wherever we can get it -- just like every other craft brewery in the world, we use the best that's available to make the best beer we can (to repeat somewhat what I said above). So, are we a Japanese brewery? Hell yeah we are!
Well, I have to apologise to Chuwy. The "Chris" was Bryan Baird's Chris rather than the Chuwy Chris that I thought.
And that explains the "obsessive" comment.
You have no reason to call me "obsessive". If I was "obsessive" then I would be writing articles on Beer in Japan about Baird and telling people to avoid the place, I would be writing on your private forum about Baird and on my private forum about Baird. I have done none of those things. Seems like Bryans hatred of me - which I never did understand - has rubbed off on you.
Shame, because if there was one person who could change the "all Baird beers have the same taste", I thought it would be you.
And now, I am a Welsh homebrewer, making Japanese homebrewed beer!
I'm also partly insane.
My first batch is almost bottled.
I go with Greg in that if it's brewed in Japan, it can be called Japanese. The style may not be Japanese though.
Hang on, What about a German beer, brewed in Japan. I made a Japanese German or a German Japanese? Or being Welsh, and using American hops, would it be a Welsh American German Japanese oh sod it - I need a beer!
I remember Charlie Parmesan once said (more like a million times) "Relax, don't worry and have one of Chuwy's homebrews!"
- or something like that.
I'm afraid I think it's a fairly pointless exercise in semantics borne out of the fact that Japan is so hung up on this Japanese racial uniqueness bullshit. You don't see the beer industries (craft or otherwise) of other new-world countries (which in terms of beer is what Japan is) engaging in this sort of naval gazing about what is or isn't American craft beer or Australian craft beer. Where is it brewed (or made)? Then that's the country-name adjective you apply to it. Baird Beer is Japanese craft beer just as a horrible Alt brewed in Toyama is Japanese craft beer as nihonshu brewed by Philip Harper is Japanese sake as Go-shuu sake brewed in Penrith is Australian sake as Pinot Noir made on the Mornington peninsular is Australian Pinot as gateaux made in Nishi-shinjuku is Japanese gateaux. The only time it is valid to apply another adjective is when that is a part of type definition. Japanese curry versus Indian curry versus Thai curry ... all quite different beasts in which a country-of-origin adjective modifying a more generic noun is the best way of conveying its intrinsic character. Beers made in Japan do not require that. If you say "Japanese beer", what does it tell you about the beer? We have American pale ale because the term "American" carries a set of meanings, mainly relating to hop-derived flavors. A Japanese American pale ale simply means it is an ale with characters we identify with as being defined by the appellation "American", and the Japanese just tells us where it was made. Is there any particular beer character that we associate with the term "Japanese"? No. Well not outside the rice lagers, and it is debatable that those characters are uniquely Japanese. So the question is pointless. Of course Baird Beer is Japanese. Bryan is an American (unless he's changed his citizenship) brewer, Chris is an American brewer, Scott Brimmer is an American brewer, and they are all making Japanese craft beer, yet the term "Japanese nantoka beer" tells you nothing about what to expect in the flavor profile of that beer. I definitely think Bryan has done more than any other brewer in Japan to successfully use indigenous Japanese ingredients in beer. But it hasn't led to an identifiable Japanese beer character, just good and interesting craft beers from one particular Japanese craft brewery.
I'm an Englishman brewing in America so I'm brewing American Beer. I'm brewing Czech, German, English, Scottish, Belgian and French style beers but I'm brewing them in America so they're American beers. The other point to remember is that "Japanese" beer is just Bud/Miller/Coors style beer brewed in Japan.
Well, you got your debate and collection of comments.
Wow, Steve. That was going into Chuwy territory (merely in terms of length, certainly not in terms of intelligence or insight!)!
Good to see input from a few people.
Chewy you say my post lacks intelligence and insight? That would be because the question is as pointless and irrelevant as the 5 gallons of beer you make in your kitchen. As Bryan Baird's brewing instructor I felt the need to contribute. My mistake.
No, Steve! I apologise. I wasn't talking about you. I meant Stephen Lacey. That Steve.
I just realised now. Oh nuts.
Also, I didnt mean to imply anyone lacked intelligence or insight besides myself. I think I've just demonstrated that.
Both Steves - sorry if I mistakenly implied that.
I thought I was making fun of myself.
I'm sorry if I offended you.
I should have been more careful wiht my comments, words, sense of humor, etc.
The beer in my home isn't even 5 gallons. It's more like a puny 2 gallons by now.
It's probably not very good but it's my first attempt and I'm ok with it.
It's interesting to meet Bryan Baird's beer instructor. I only wish it were under better circumstances.
I guess I'll get my coat, then.
I mistook two Chris's. Chuwy mistook two Steves. It's easily done.
I wish I had realised it was Bryan Baird's Chris rather than Chuwy when I wrote my reply. I was restrained because I though it was Chuwy. I couldn't understand the "obsessive" comment. Now I know it's Bryan's Chris, the "obsessive" comment makes more sense. I ain't done anything "obsessive" about Baird but clearly workers at Baird don't like people who, shock, don't think Baird is god.
DH: It would have been good to get some Japanese input here.
Sorry, DH.
I've upset at least one Steve now.
The whole 'wow' thing was just an intitial reaction to the length of Mr.Lacey's comment.
I need to be more careful in future. Hopefully I haven't upset Mr.Lacey as well.
Mr.Parkes, it was my mistake.
You guys are doing some good things at the ABG. I've read a few of your articles and they have been helpful in terms of understanding the processes that occur when beer is brewed.
I've only just started to homebrew. I have so much more to learn. Looking forward to it.
Not upset....misunderstanding.... and easily solved. Years of message board conflicts with Welsh rugby fans led me to jump to the wrong conclusion :-)
> The other point to remember is that "Japanese" beer is just Bud/Miller/Coors style beer brewed in Japan
Is it just me who finds this racist and ignorant? Clearly someone who hasn't taken the time to discover the good Japanese beer out there. Jesus, no wonder he was Bryan Baird's teacher with that attitude.
By the way, I cooked pizza tonight but I cooked it in Japan. Does that make it Japanese food?
Right. I think it's time for another post or another question. The kitchen is getting too hot for this guy to bother staying in, without a beer. The whole discussion seems to have taken a turn.
I'm just gonna think about the rugby that's coming up, this weekend.
Guys, I love you all!
CK wrote
"Is it just me who finds this racist and ignorant?"
Probably
Unlikely
I've already wasted time on this but have scoured your web site CK and can find no descriptions of any indigenous Japanese beer styles. I'm familiar with Kiuchi of course so is the beer/sake hybrid what you mean by "good Japanese beer"? If there is a thriving scene of Japanese brewers out there producing unique Japanese beer styles please cover them on your site as it would be very interesting. Brewers in Italy have been successful in creating their own unique beer scene by taking what appeals to them from international influences and adding their own twists. Similar things have happened in San Diego, New England and Quebec. Is that happening in Japan? I can't really tell from your on line guide book.
Thanks for that Steve. It just proved that your racist and ignorant comment about Japanese beer was based on zero knowledge of the Japanese beer scene.
Beer in Japan tells people where to find craft beer in Japan. It is not an educator of Japanese craft beer styles. It assumes that people who read the site already have interest in Japanese beer and will go to the bars and discover the beers.
It may have been an accident, but "lacks intelligence" was a spot on comment.
This became such a boring conversation.
Ah so we can't rely on you to correct the perception that Japanese beer is little different from beer in America. Any hints on where to go and find someone serious about promoting Japanese beer culture?
To: Beer in Japan/BIJ/Bij/CK Obsession
I apologize for using your real name in an earlier comment. While it wasn't intensional, I shouldn't have done that. It was careless of me, and I won't do it again. If I could go back and edit my comment, I would -- but since I can't, I hope you will accept this apology for what it is.
it's true. the chili came back to haunt.
Everyone, thanks for all of the comments! Good, bad, debating or otherwise--it's good to hear from all of you.
And now back to our topic.
To Steve Parkes: There really isn't a lot of consolidated information about craft beer in Japan, especially in English -- even in Japanese it's hard to find. There are a growing number of blogs written by foreign residents/immigrants as well as Japanese beer lovers, but that's about it.
Yeah Steve. If BIJ isn't able to show you that Japanese beer isn't like Coors, you might like to read the archives of this fine site or even subscribe to Baird's newsletter (since you said beer made in Japan is Japanese beer)..
So, BIJ, are you still saying that Baird Brewing Company is not a Japanese brewery? We have four brewers, Bryan, me, Tetsuya and Shinya. I think the latter two would be very surprised to find that they are not working for a Japanese company, especially since they are paid in yen, get Japanese national health insurance, and are part of the Japanese national pension system. Not to mention that we are located in Numazu, Japan. And do 95% of our business in Japan. And operate three pubs in Japan. I honestly don't get where you're coming from.
"A beer is from the country in which it is brewed. Thus, a Japanese-branded beer brewed in Canada is a Canadian beer. Just as an Australian-branded beer brewed in Canada is a Canadian beer."
I respectfully disagree. A beer is what it is branded to be, and it doesn't matter what the nationality of the brewer/owner is. Asahi brewed in Canada is a Japanese beer. Heineken brewed in America is a Dutch beer. Guiness brewed in Laos is an Irish beer.
I would say that the environment where a beer is brewed has a lot to do with its taste....thus making it more tied to where it comes from. Sure Coke is Coke....but ask any avid Coke drinker if Japanese coke and Coke in Atlanta are the same....
DH, sure a Sapporo brewed in the States is going to taste different than my beloved Sapporo here. Hell, even Chiba Sapporo is different from Shizuoka Sapporo (markedly different as far as I'm concerned). But it's all still "Japanese Sapporo" to me.
Next time I'm in Mickey D's or Booger King, I think I'll ask them if their Coke/Pepsi is American or Japanese. That should get some good confused looks!
But Gotema Kogen and Baird are only brewed in Japan. That seems like a clear case to me -- Japanese beers.
"Chris said...
And now back to our topic.
To Steve Parkes: There really isn't a lot of consolidated information about craft beer in Japan, especially in English -- even in Japanese it's hard to find. There are a growing number of blogs written by foreign residents/immigrants as well as Japanese beer lovers, but that's about it."
I'm still unable to discern if there was an indigenous brewing industry not based on producing Germanic style lagers using high adjunct rates, prior to the recent craft beer boom. To the best of my knowledge the rest of the world views "Japanese" beer" in the same way it views "American beer" because it tastes the same. The fact that, in Japan, as in America, there are now many small craft operations producing excellent international styles, and innovating their own styles is fantastic. Just read Michael Jackson. Evidently the first Japanese to taste beer were given it by a visiting American Navy vessel in 1853. An American company built the first brewery there in 1869 and then the government sent a brewer to Germany to learn brewing. So for the last 140 yrs or so virtually the only beer in Japan was high adjunct German style pilsner ie Bud/Miller/Coors, until recently, when a number of craft brewers opened up and started making other styles from around the world, and a few innovations involving some local ingredients. Sorry for being an ignorant racist
"Sorry for being an ignorant racist"
[big grin]
You are basically right. There are a few recently opened/revived craft breweries that once upon a time made beer (say 75-100 years ago). But, from what I can tell, they also made German-style lagers, nothing even remotely "Japanese."
To my knowledge (admittedly limited), the only beers that you could argue are uniquely Japanese are those made with sake yeast. And even that idea seems to have been co-opted by US brewers.
Chris wrote "To my knowledge (admittedly limited), the only beers that you could argue are uniquely Japanese are those made with sake yeast. And even that idea seems to have been co-opted by US brewers."
Here's mine http://www.ottercreekbrewing.com/otter_creek/beers/ottersan.html
BIJ, your accusations of racism and ignorance against Steve Parks are just plain wrong and in my opinion you owe him an apology. Let me try to explain why.
In my over-long post, I said, "Is there any particular beer character that we associate with the term "Japanese"? No. Well not outside the rice lagers, and it is debatable that those characters are uniquely Japanese."
Steve Parks was saying the same thing. The Japanese mainstream Sapporo, Kirin, Suntory, Asahi are all lumped in the category "light international lager". Exactly the same as Bud, Miller, Coors, Fosters, San Miguel, Red Stripe, Singha, Corona, Maharaja, etc, etc...it is a very long list. There are some splitters who like to define "Mexican lager" for Corona and "Japanese lager" for our big four, but it is academic and there are no real grounds for splitting.
His comment wasn't ignorant or racist and reflected not one way or another on the richness and diversity or otherwise of the Japanese craft beer industry at large. His point was: is there a single beer characteristic or set of characteristics that anyone would associate with the term "Japanese"? And in style terms, the J big four are the same as the US big three.
Chuwy, you have had a bad effect on me -- verbosity-wise, I mean. And you at no stage caused me any offense in the slightest by saying that. Cheers, mate. And may the best rugby team win and the ref keep his pea in his whistle.
To Steve Parkes: The link doesn't seem to work.
Wait, I found it:
http://www.ottercreekbrewing.com/otter_creek/beers/ottersan.html
The html part was missing.
Beer sounds great. I wish Bryan and I could give it a try. And maybe be inspired to do something similar in the future.
Damn, the link just doesn't want to paste in here.
Go to the Otter Creek website, mouse over the Otter Creek link near the top, then --> Beers --> World Tour Series --> Otter San and click. That should get you there.
Steve Lacey: If the other Steve's comment had been "The other point to remember is that Mainstream Japanese beer is just Bud/Miller/Coors style beer brewed in Japan." then I would have agreed with it.
Chris: I'm not going to have a pointless argument with you about whether Baird is Japanese or not.
Chris: But I will say this - in fairness to Baird, he does use some Japanese ingredients in a few beers.
...and I'm back in the kitchen.
I must admit at first I thought Mr.Parkes comment about Japanese mianstream beer could have been construed in the wrong way and may came across a tad strong, but I feel that in a subsequent post he explained his thought quite clearly. I have myself attacked and lmabasted Japanese mainstream beer and openly dislike super dry and get frsutrated at the options (though cheap) available in the average 7-11 and the attempts by the big 4 (Suntory, Kirin {is 'kuntory' ever going tohappen?}, Asahi and Sapporo) to bring out interesting new 'seasonals' that taste just as balnd as their liefelss brethren.
MY whole mix up was due to me not being clear with my words - or even due to me using words in the first place.
BIJ made an easy mistake of mixing up the two people called Chris.
Mistakes happen or misunderstandings happen either way.
We shouldn't forget that opinions are important and respect each other's rights to express them but also give each other a bit of slack in terms of interpretations and levels of knowledge. Its good for someone to educate another but I see no advanatage in rubbing someones nose in it. I'm happy to read the intersting info you guys are giving us, wether I agree or not with what you say, it is interesting either way.
Try not to get upset too fast.
It happens often when you don't know someone. I've read some interesting opinions and ideas on this thread. Some of it had been geting close to becoming heated. not everyone is everyone's best freind but it does seem that logic is holding sway over emotions. Good.
Hopefully we can all get along and act in a civil manner, like the mature, responsible adults that we are.
Isn't that right, 'Mr.Poopy' faces?
I'm going back to living the rest of my life in Disneyland now.
I hear their craft beer is getting better...
Chuwy, make sure you try the Mickey Mouse Mild -- I hear it's their best.
I'll be taking the Mickey, then.
I STILL have a little something for you, from way up North.
It's been in my fridge for agonizing ages.
I've been resisting temptation for so long....
And I'm still waiting for you to peddle down here -- guess with winter around the corner, that's not going to happen soon. I'll let you know next time I'm in the Tokyo area.
@BIJ: "If the other Steve's comment had been ... then I would have agreed with it."
The problem is not that you disagreed; it is that you made a personal attack, labeling his comment, and thereby him, as racist and ignorant. And as I have explained, the comment was neither, and the scare quotes he used did the job of telling us he was referring to the mainstream American perception of what is meant by "Japanese beer". So the fact you misinterpreted his words, the meaning of which was clear enough to everybody else, is really not his fault.
Between the post of:
The other point to remember is that "Japanese" beer is just Bud/Miller/Coors style beer brewed in Japan.
and my comment of:
Is it just me who finds this racist and ignorant? Clearly someone who hasn't taken the time to discover the good Japanese beer out there.
There was no explanation, and while you might feel subsequent comments explain the Japanese dig, that's by the by. The way it was phrased at the time was open to interpretation that way I interpreted it.
that -> the:
The way it was phrased at the time was open to interpretation the way I interpreted it.
@BIJ "The way it was phrased at the time was open to interpretation the way I interpreted it."
Not really. I understood it exactly as I explained it the moment I read it. No "subsequent comments" needed. As I mentioned, I'd made the same point in my post, so I knew immediately and instinctively what he meant based on a similar base knowledge.
If you don't understand what we are getting at, please read the BJCP style guidelines. Category 1B, Standard American lager lists as commercial examples: Miller High Life, Budweiser, Kirin Lager, Molson Golden, Corona Extra, Foster's Lager. Kirin Lager, Budweiser and Fosters all side by side. "American" beer, "Australian" beer, and "Japanese" beer. That's the referent.
The BJCP guidelines are no Bible nor immune from error, but they provide a working classification system which many people use as a guide for understanding beer styles, and they are a common base referent for many quips and comments about beer in blog comment threads, amongst other places of beery discourse. A passing familiarity with them might avoid this kind of misunderstanding in the future.
Good morning. Its morning where I am so I'm not being insensitive or racist :-)
What I've found most enlightening about this little discourse is the difference between the brewing community and the beer blogging community. Respect for each other's work is the hallmark of brewers all over the world. The idea that anyone writing about beer could think and write the things the BiJ does is beyond me. Luckily being called "racist" doesn't bother me as much as it probably should because a) its preposterous and b) far more ludicrous charges are being leveled at far more important people than me these days.
The more I noodle this through the less sense it makes. BiJ was upset that I was unaware of all of the excellent work being done in craft breweries in Japan, yet doesn't feel that being brewed in Japan doesn't necessarily qualify a beer as Japanese. One brewery doesn't qualify apparently because the owner was mean to BiJ "for no reason". I've heard the "he was mean to me for no reason" from my kids a lot so it does sound plausible :-)
BiJ if you're reading this perhaps you could take on the task of gathering information about all of the great craft beer brewed in Japan and tell the story of the craft beer movement. It seem like a story someone should be telling and Beer in Japan seems like the place to start.
Steve Parkes -- quick question about your Koji & sake yeast beer: Where did you get your Koji and yeast from? We can get it here fairly easily, but talking to others in the States, it seems to be pretty hard to come by.
We got it from an importer in San Francisco who shipped us two 5 lb containers. I'd have to look up the specifics when I'm next at the brewery but we found it online.
Thanks -- just wondering, no need to go through the trouble of looking up the contact info.
Mr. Parkes, I too have noticed that most brewers around the world all seem to understand that they are all on the same team. From collaboration brews that are becoming more popular these days to brewers being friends--I think it is a tight knit community. I hope that what I write about beer on this site--good and bad--never comes across as me trying to take down someone's creation. For sure us bloggers need to be careful about that. Just like it is easy for me to arm chair quarterback on Sunday afternoon, it is easy to "table-top brew" and list allof the reasons why said beer is terrible and how we can make it better.
Nate has often accused me of being the eternal optimist and nice guy--since most beers I try, I like--and I will give most the benefit of the doubt.
BIJ has a different approach--but one that many people enjoy and I think that fills a need on the web. Since he (and other's like Chuwy) are writing and doing good things for the beer scene in Tokyo, I try to hit some other spots.
Sure, we all have our biases. If BIJ isn't the biggest Baird fan, I can't fault him--as long as we (and he) remember that it is his opinion to which he is entitled. I am sure there is craft beer out there that he enjoys that others might not be so hot on. I have never been a big fan of Nest for example, but the fact that he promotes them is good for the craft beer scene in Japan.
I openly and blatantly support Baird on this site because number 1: they are some kick ass dudes, and number 2: they make some kick ass beer. Of course, it's my opinion.
Everyone, thanks for your comments and for making this the most popular post EVER.
I think that we should all meet up at The Taproom on Saturday Nov. 21st or Sunday November 22nd to continue this product over some fine brews. (I'm also bringing some KY Bourbon Barrel Ale for all to sample!)
There is also a fishing contest. Chris, you might as well go ahead and put "To DH: Only the Best Fisherman the World has Ever Known" on the trophy for me.
Hey, you aren't the only 'country boy' around.
If there's a fishing challenge...
You ever try tickling trout?
That wasn't meant to sound kinky.
I just woke up and man, it took me ages to catch up on where I'd left off, in the comments.
We are all on the same team. We all love beer and want the stuff to flow free and gorgeous.
It almost seems like a natural progression to go from beer drinker to beer brewer/home brewer.
Not all the beer lovers out there do make this change, but, from a beginning homebrewer as I am, I highly reccomend it. The way I see beer now is changing, as I'm understanding the processes involved and how easy/hard it can be to make good beer. I'm appreciating the efforts of some brewers and perhaps lamenting the lack of from others.
A combination of science and opinion is very interesting.
Can turn volatile but I think we've all controlled ourselves and this turned into quite a series of comments!
As my Japanese improves (it can't get any worse!), I hope to write more about beer over here and learn more about the craft beer scene, as there is a lot more to it than I currently am aware of.
The Japanese craft beer community is there. Too often it's either Japanese or foreign.
I think some people like Chris, Bryan, Stefan Lager, Scott Brimmer, Mr.Lacey and others like them help the two groups to converge and they bring with them some good knowledge about world beer and the styles and their wealth of experience.
I'm lucky enough to know and be included in a fantastic group of people, both Japanese and non native.
I'm looking forward to how the craft beer scene in Japan pans out. A few good (IMHO- Geez, did I just type one of those?) breweries closed this year. A few bad ones too. We live in interesting times.
It seems like most of the breweries started making the standard German far : Weissen, pilsner and alt or dunkel.
Then, pale ales started turning up enmasse. Then I was noticing barleywines everywhere.
Now it seems people are making IPAs and experimenting with sake yeast in beer and bringing out Belgian style hybrids or smoked beers. They are growing their own hops. The selection is improving here. The quality and consistency also, I hope.
Damn, it's midday and I'm thirsty and I've forgotten what I wanted to say in the first place.
Stay classy.
Steve Parkes, in case you look in again, I am fascinated to know how you incorporated the koji into the brew. Did you just take some koji-rice (steamed rice with the koji mould growing all through it) and dump it in the mash? Or something else? I can't really imagine any other way to incorporate koji into beer brewing. Can you discern the flavor imparted by the koji in the beer?
It took a lot of time and a great deal of research to arrive at the method. We made a good sake ourselves and blended it with a cleanly made low bitterness pale ale. We then realized we would have to add so much sake we would immediately become the largest sake producer in America. :-) So we deliberately made a bad sake hoping that the increased off notes would require less actual sake in the final blend. Again too much. We settled on adding the koji rice to the fermenter at the same time as the yeast, and set about determining the ratios and temperatures to achieve the final result. The recipe included brown rice syrup and pregelatinized rice flakes. Hops were noble German. Fermentation with the yeast continued normally and the gravity stopped dropping. We left the temperature high and waited as the gravity began to fall again. We assume it was due to the koji making more sugar and the yeast fermenting it. The resulting brew tasted like a hybrid of beer and sake.
Steve, thanks very much for taking the time to answer. Wow, pretty interesting bit of R&D brewing. Great case of thinking outside the square as I wouldn't have thought you'd turn a beer fermentation into an exceptionally thin moromi. What did the gravity get down to?
For the commercial product we stopped it at 3 plato but the test batches got down below 1 plato eventually.
Hey all
been enjoying reading the debate, been enjoying a brew as well, I've had many brews from all over the world. some I like, some not so much from the same country. can we all say that there is a lot of pleasure to be had in a great brew regardless of it's origin!! I've done some backpacking and have been able to find remarkable beauty in all the areas I've visited. It's all about the brew/walk. FIND THE PLEASURE!!! AND ENJOY
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