Comments on Good Beer and Country Boys: What makes a "Japanese Beer" or a "Japanese Brewer...

Hey all been enjoying reading the debate, been en...

2009-11-20T09:35:03.602+09:00

Hey all
been enjoying reading the debate, been enjoying a brew as well, I've had many brews from all over the world. some I like, some not so much from the same country. can we all say that there is a lot of pleasure to be had in a great brew regardless of it's origin!! I've done some backpacking and have been able to find remarkable beauty in all the areas I've visited. It's all about the brew/walk. FIND THE PLEASURE!!! AND ENJOY

For the commercial product we stopped it at 3 plat...

2009-11-17T21:35:48.909+09:00

For the commercial product we stopped it at 3 plato but the test batches got down below 1 plato eventually.

Steve, thanks very much for taking the time to ans...

2009-11-17T14:54:37.104+09:00

Steve, thanks very much for taking the time to answer. Wow, pretty interesting bit of R&D brewing. Great case of thinking outside the square as I wouldn't have thought you'd turn a beer fermentation into an exceptionally thin moromi. What did the gravity get down to?

It took a lot of time and a great deal of research...

2009-11-14T22:37:58.683+09:00

It took a lot of time and a great deal of research to arrive at the method. We made a good sake ourselves and blended it with a cleanly made low bitterness pale ale. We then realized we would have to add so much sake we would immediately become the largest sake producer in America. :-) So we deliberately made a bad sake hoping that the increased off notes would require less actual sake in the final blend. Again too much. We settled on adding the koji rice to the fermenter at the same time as the yeast, and set about determining the ratios and temperatures to achieve the final result. The recipe included brown rice syrup and pregelatinized rice flakes. Hops were noble German. Fermentation with the yeast continued normally and the gravity stopped dropping. We left the temperature high and waited as the gravity began to fall again. We assume it was due to the koji making more sugar and the yeast fermenting it. The resulting brew tasted like a hybrid of beer and sake.

Steve Parkes, in case you look in again, I am fasc...

2009-11-14T19:40:28.681+09:00

Steve Parkes, in case you look in again, I am fascinated to know how you incorporated the koji into the brew. Did you just take some koji-rice (steamed rice with the koji mould growing all through it) and dump it in the mash? Or something else? I can't really imagine any other way to incorporate koji into beer brewing. Can you discern the flavor imparted by the koji in the beer?

Hey, you aren't the only 'country boy'...

2009-11-14T12:02:58.840+09:00

Hey, you aren't the only 'country boy' around.
If there's a fishing challenge...
You ever try tickling trout?
That wasn't meant to sound kinky.

I just woke up and man, it took me ages to catch up on where I'd left off, in the comments.
We are all on the same team. We all love beer and want the stuff to flow free and gorgeous.
It almost seems like a natural progression to go from beer drinker to beer brewer/home brewer.
Not all the beer lovers out there do make this change, but, from a beginning homebrewer as I am, I highly reccomend it. The way I see beer now is changing, as I'm understanding the processes involved and how easy/hard it can be to make good beer. I'm appreciating the efforts of some brewers and perhaps lamenting the lack of from others.
A combination of science and opinion is very interesting.
Can turn volatile but I think we've all controlled ourselves and this turned into quite a series of comments!
As my Japanese improves (it can't get any worse!), I hope to write more about beer over here and learn more about the craft beer scene, as there is a lot more to it than I currently am aware of.
The Japanese craft beer community is there. Too often it's either Japanese or foreign.
I think some people like Chris, Bryan, Stefan Lager, Scott Brimmer, Mr.Lacey and others like them help the two groups to converge and they bring with them some good knowledge about world beer and the styles and their wealth of experience.
I'm lucky enough to know and be included in a fantastic group of people, both Japanese and non native.
I'm looking forward to how the craft beer scene in Japan pans out. A few good (IMHO- Geez, did I just type one of those?) breweries closed this year. A few bad ones too. We live in interesting times.
It seems like most of the breweries started making the standard German far : Weissen, pilsner and alt or dunkel.
Then, pale ales started turning up enmasse. Then I was noticing barleywines everywhere.
Now it seems people are making IPAs and experimenting with sake yeast in beer and bringing out Belgian style hybrids or smoked beers. They are growing their own hops. The selection is improving here. The quality and consistency also, I hope.
Damn, it's midday and I'm thirsty and I've forgotten what I wanted to say in the first place.
Stay classy.

Mr. Parkes, I too have noticed that most brewers a...

2009-11-14T06:27:27.508+09:00

Mr. Parkes, I too have noticed that most brewers around the world all seem to understand that they are all on the same team. From collaboration brews that are becoming more popular these days to brewers being friends--I think it is a tight knit community. I hope that what I write about beer on this site--good and bad--never comes across as me trying to take down someone's creation. For sure us bloggers need to be careful about that. Just like it is easy for me to arm chair quarterback on Sunday afternoon, it is easy to "table-top brew" and list allof the reasons why said beer is terrible and how we can make it better.

Nate has often accused me of being the eternal optimist and nice guy--since most beers I try, I like--and I will give most the benefit of the doubt.

BIJ has a different approach--but one that many people enjoy and I think that fills a need on the web. Since he (and other's like Chuwy) are writing and doing good things for the beer scene in Tokyo, I try to hit some other spots.

Sure, we all have our biases. If BIJ isn't the biggest Baird fan, I can't fault him--as long as we (and he) remember that it is his opinion to which he is entitled. I am sure there is craft beer out there that he enjoys that others might not be so hot on. I have never been a big fan of Nest for example, but the fact that he promotes them is good for the craft beer scene in Japan.

I openly and blatantly support Baird on this site because number 1: they are some kick ass dudes, and number 2: they make some kick ass beer. Of course, it's my opinion.

Everyone, thanks for your comments and for making this the most popular post EVER.

I think that we should all meet up at The Taproom on Saturday Nov. 21st or Sunday November 22nd to continue this product over some fine brews. (I'm also bringing some KY Bourbon Barrel Ale for all to sample!)

There is also a fishing contest. Chris, you might as well go ahead and put "To DH: Only the Best Fisherman the World has Ever Known" on the trophy for me.

Thanks -- just wondering, no need to go through th...

2009-11-14T01:18:01.949+09:00

Thanks -- just wondering, no need to go through the trouble of looking up the contact info.

We got it from an importer in San Francisco who sh...

2009-11-13T23:38:12.369+09:00

We got it from an importer in San Francisco who shipped us two 5 lb containers. I'd have to look up the specifics when I'm next at the brewery but we found it online.

Steve Parkes -- quick question about your Koji &am...

2009-11-13T23:22:37.025+09:00

Steve Parkes -- quick question about your Koji & sake yeast beer: Where did you get your Koji and yeast from? We can get it here fairly easily, but talking to others in the States, it seems to be pretty hard to come by.

Good morning. Its morning where I am so I'm no...

2009-11-13T23:16:41.237+09:00

Good morning. Its morning where I am so I'm not being insensitive or racist :-)
What I've found most enlightening about this little discourse is the difference between the brewing community and the beer blogging community. Respect for each other's work is the hallmark of brewers all over the world. The idea that anyone writing about beer could think and write the things the BiJ does is beyond me. Luckily being called "racist" doesn't bother me as much as it probably should because a) its preposterous and b) far more ludicrous charges are being leveled at far more important people than me these days.
The more I noodle this through the less sense it makes. BiJ was upset that I was unaware of all of the excellent work being done in craft breweries in Japan, yet doesn't feel that being brewed in Japan doesn't necessarily qualify a beer as Japanese. One brewery doesn't qualify apparently because the owner was mean to BiJ "for no reason". I've heard the "he was mean to me for no reason" from my kids a lot so it does sound plausible :-)
BiJ if you're reading this perhaps you could take on the task of gathering information about all of the great craft beer brewed in Japan and tell the story of the craft beer movement. It seem like a story someone should be telling and Beer in Japan seems like the place to start.

@BIJ "The way it was phrased at the time was ...

2009-11-13T22:45:21.589+09:00

@BIJ "The way it was phrased at the time was open to interpretation the way I interpreted it."

Not really. I understood it exactly as I explained it the moment I read it. No "subsequent comments" needed. As I mentioned, I'd made the same point in my post, so I knew immediately and instinctively what he meant based on a similar base knowledge.

If you don't understand what we are getting at, please read the BJCP style guidelines. Category 1B, Standard American lager lists as commercial examples: Miller High Life, Budweiser, Kirin Lager, Molson Golden, Corona Extra, Foster's Lager. Kirin Lager, Budweiser and Fosters all side by side. "American" beer, "Australian" beer, and "Japanese" beer. That's the referent.

The BJCP guidelines are no Bible nor immune from error, but they provide a working classification system which many people use as a guide for understanding beer styles, and they are a common base referent for many quips and comments about beer in blog comment threads, amongst other places of beery discourse. A passing familiarity with them might avoid this kind of misunderstanding in the future.

that -> the: The way it was phrased at the tim...

2009-11-13T16:50:44.905+09:00

that -> the:

The way it was phrased at the time was open to interpretation the way I interpreted it.

Between the post of: The other point to rememb...

2009-11-13T16:48:19.939+09:00
Between the post of:

The other point to remember is that "Japanese" beer is just Bud/Miller/Coors style beer brewed in Japan.

and my comment of:

Is it just me who finds this racist and ignorant? Clearly someone who hasn't taken the time to discover the good Japanese beer out there.

There was no explanation, and while you might feel subsequent comments explain the Japanese dig, that's by the by. The way it was phrased at the time was open to interpretation that way I interpreted it.

@BIJ: "If the other Steve's comment had b...

2009-11-13T16:18:36.951+09:00
@BIJ: "If the other Steve's comment had been ... then I would have agreed with it."

The problem is not that you disagreed; it is that you made a personal attack, labeling his comment, and thereby him, as racist and ignorant. And as I have explained, the comment was neither, and the scare quotes he used did the job of telling us he was referring to the mainstream American perception of what is meant by "Japanese beer". So the fact you misinterpreted his words, the meaning of which was clear enough to everybody else, is really not his fault.

And I'm still waiting for you to peddle down h...

2009-11-13T14:05:07.084+09:00
And I'm still waiting for you to peddle down here -- guess with winter around the corner, that's not going to happen soon. I'll let you know next time I'm in the Tokyo area.

I'll be taking the Mickey, then. I STILL have...

2009-11-13T13:42:01.935+09:00
I'll be taking the Mickey, then.

I STILL have a little something for you, from way up North.
It's been in my fridge for agonizing ages.
I've been resisting temptation for so long....

Chuwy, make sure you try the Mickey Mouse Mild -- ...

2009-11-13T13:40:09.773+09:00
Chuwy, make sure you try the Mickey Mouse Mild -- I hear it's their best.

...and I'm back in the kitchen. I must admit a...

2009-11-13T13:34:00.822+09:00
...and I'm back in the kitchen.
I must admit at first I thought Mr.Parkes comment about Japanese mianstream beer could have been construed in the wrong way and may came across a tad strong, but I feel that in a subsequent post he explained his thought quite clearly. I have myself attacked and lmabasted Japanese mainstream beer and openly dislike super dry and get frsutrated at the options (though cheap) available in the average 7-11 and the attempts by the big 4 (Suntory, Kirin {is 'kuntory' ever going tohappen?}, Asahi and Sapporo) to bring out interesting new 'seasonals' that taste just as balnd as their liefelss brethren.
MY whole mix up was due to me not being clear with my words - or even due to me using words in the first place.
BIJ made an easy mistake of mixing up the two people called Chris.
Mistakes happen or misunderstandings happen either way.
We shouldn't forget that opinions are important and respect each other's rights to express them but also give each other a bit of slack in terms of interpretations and levels of knowledge. Its good for someone to educate another but I see no advanatage in rubbing someones nose in it. I'm happy to read the intersting info you guys are giving us, wether I agree or not with what you say, it is interesting either way.
Try not to get upset too fast.
It happens often when you don't know someone. I've read some interesting opinions and ideas on this thread. Some of it had been geting close to becoming heated. not everyone is everyone's best freind but it does seem that logic is holding sway over emotions. Good.
Hopefully we can all get along and act in a civil manner, like the mature, responsible adults that we are.

Isn't that right, 'Mr.Poopy' faces?

I'm going back to living the rest of my life in Disneyland now.
I hear their craft beer is getting better...

Chris: But I will say this - in fairness to Baird,...

2009-11-13T12:03:21.885+09:00
Chris: But I will say this - in fairness to Baird, he does use some Japanese ingredients in a few beers.

Steve Lacey: If the other Steve's comment had ...

2009-11-13T11:57:44.489+09:00
Steve Lacey: If the other Steve's comment had been "The other point to remember is that Mainstream Japanese beer is just Bud/Miller/Coors style beer brewed in Japan." then I would have agreed with it.

Chris: I'm not going to have a pointless argument with you about whether Baird is Japanese or not.

Damn, the link just doesn't want to paste in h...

2009-11-13T11:21:56.165+09:00
Damn, the link just doesn't want to paste in here.

Go to the Otter Creek website, mouse over the Otter Creek link near the top, then --> Beers --> World Tour Series --> Otter San and click. That should get you there.

Wait, I found it: http://www.ottercreekbrewing.com...

2009-11-13T11:19:15.255+09:00
Wait, I found it:
http://www.ottercreekbrewing.com/otter_creek/beers/ottersan.html

The html part was missing.

Beer sounds great. I wish Bryan and I could give it a try. And maybe be inspired to do something similar in the future.

To Steve Parkes: The link doesn't seem to work...

2009-11-13T11:16:53.934+09:00
To Steve Parkes: The link doesn't seem to work.

BIJ, your accusations of racism and ignorance agai...

2009-11-13T11:02:47.133+09:00
BIJ, your accusations of racism and ignorance against Steve Parks are just plain wrong and in my opinion you owe him an apology. Let me try to explain why.

In my over-long post, I said, "Is there any particular beer character that we associate with the term "Japanese"? No. Well not outside the rice lagers, and it is debatable that those characters are uniquely Japanese."

Steve Parks was saying the same thing. The Japanese mainstream Sapporo, Kirin, Suntory, Asahi are all lumped in the category "light international lager". Exactly the same as Bud, Miller, Coors, Fosters, San Miguel, Red Stripe, Singha, Corona, Maharaja, etc, etc...it is a very long list. There are some splitters who like to define "Mexican lager" for Corona and "Japanese lager" for our big four, but it is academic and there are no real grounds for splitting.

His comment wasn't ignorant or racist and reflected not one way or another on the richness and diversity or otherwise of the Japanese craft beer industry at large. His point was: is there a single beer characteristic or set of characteristics that anyone would associate with the term "Japanese"? And in style terms, the J big four are the same as the US big three.

Chuwy, you have had a bad effect on me -- verbosity-wise, I mean. And you at no stage caused me any offense in the slightest by saying that. Cheers, mate. And may the best rugby team win and the ref keep his pea in his whistle.